For Barry Shrout, raising four granddaughters is a role he willingly took on — and that he acknowledges is exhausting and expensive.

“The financial part of it is a big thing with me,” said Shrout, 66, a single grandfather from Maysville who has custody of the girls ages 10, 11, 13 and 17. “I have to daily watch every nickel and dime I spend.”

Grandparents like Shrout have prompted Norma Hatfield, of Elizabethtown, to renew her near- for more help for such relatives, mostly grandparents, who are raising an estimated 59,000 Kentucky children in what’s commonly called “kinship care.”

Hatfield, president of , acknowledges Kentucky has adopted some changes meant to aid relatives raising children whose parents are unable to care for them or have lost custody because of neglect or abuse with addiction often a factor.

But Hatfield, who is raising two grandchildren, said more is needed to aid the many older relatives who have stepped in to raise children who likely would otherwise end up in foster care — at significant expense to the state.

“I communicate with so many caregivers and I keep hearing the same issues, the same struggles, and I don’t see a lot of change,” Hatfield said. “It’s been nine years. Why can’t we do better?”

Kentucky Youth Advocates, while commending state social services for changes meant to aid such caregivers, continues to seek more help for those, many on fixed incomes, who have taken children into their homes.

Shannon Moody, chief policy and strategy officer for the nonpartisan advocacy group, said recent reports of children sleeping in state social services offices in Kentucky for lack of a suitable placement as well as others sent out of state to residential centers or psychiatric hospitals suggest a “crisis” in the system.

Placing children with relatives or caregivers known as “fictive kin” — adults known and trusted by the child such as a neighbor or friend — could ease the strain, she said.

“Some of the recommendations we are making are making sure kids are with family or family-based care,” Moody said.

But Rep. Samara Heavrin, R-Leitchfield and committee co-chair, expressed reservations about more financial assistance to such caregivers without more oversight.

“It’s a very big ask for the General Assembly to give money out without any strings attached,” Heavrin said. “I understand your story… but we can’t just write a blank check, either.”

Hatfield and Moody said no one is asking for a blank check but said it’s clear more work is needed to help caregivers understand what they are taking on, what assistance is available and the expense involved.

“We can’t just leave them drained, completely drained,” Hatfield said.

‘Dropped like a hot potato’

Until 2013, the state offered a monthly payment of $300 per child to kinship care providers who took in children. By contrast, state-certified foster parents are paid about $750 a month.

But the state to new applicants 10 years ago, citing budget pressures.

Since then, Kentucky has , prodded in part by a class-action lawsuit that successfully argued kinship caregivers were providing essentially the same services for free that foster parents provided for $750 or more per child per month.

Now, relatives can receive foster care payments if they agree to train and become certified by the state. Monthly payments range from the full amount per child to partial pay if the relatives can’t meet all requirements — for example, if the house isn’t large enough to meet state specifications.

But when the child moves from foster to permanent status, should the relative adopt or gain permanent custody, the payments stop.

“They are dropped like a hot potato,” Hatfield said. “You take what you can when you can.”

Good news for family, foster caregivers

One bright spot: a recent federal rule change will allow relatives to get full foster pay even if their homes don’t meet all licensing standards.

Hatfield said Kentucky officials are reviewing how to implement the change that would be “huge” for relative caregivers.

In more potential good news for such caregivers, Gov. Andy Beshear, in his Dec. 18 budget proposal, included $10 million a year over the next two years to increase money available to relatives who agree to take children in care of the state social service system. And his budget proposes another $9.8 million a year each year to increase foster care rates by 12% for all foster caregivers.

Hatfield said both steps would be enormously helpful in relieving the financial strain for families.

“I’m so grateful to the governor for the proposed funding in the budget for kinship and foster families,” she said. “It gives me and many others a renewed sense of hope.”

Hatfield said she and other advocates will work to convince lawmakers of the need for the funds as legislators begin drafting the state’s next two-year budget in the upcoming legislative session.

Other aid available to caregivers includes the Kentucky Transitional Assistance Program, which provides a modest monthly payment per child, Medicaid health coverage for the children, Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or food stamps, and a “Kentucky Caregiver” program which offers an annual payment of $500 per child for expenses such as furniture, school supplies, clothes or other needs.

The child’s parents also may be required to pay child support to caregivers, though advocates say that can be hard to collect in cases where parents are experiencing addiction, are incarcerated or have left the state.

An uninformed decision — such as agreeing to take temporary custody of children — can force relatives to forfeit aid such as foster payments available only to those who agree to accept them under a foster care arrangement with the state, she said.

And state officials don’t allow any changes after that initial decision.

Workers with the Cabinet for Health and Family Services are supposed to explain options and the cabinet has information, including a on its website, but families need better, simple and clear explanations, Hatfield said.

“People are caught up in a time of stress and all they hear is, ‘You can take temporary custody or we can put them in foster care,’” Hatfield said. “They say, ‘Of course we’ll take custody.’ Once you check the box, you can’t change it.”

Hatfield and Kentucky Youth Advocates are urging several changes they believe would help.

Mileage reimbursement

Relatives who take in children, often from abusive or neglectful situations, find they are required to take children to a host of appointments for medical care and therapy for the trauma many have experienced. They also are required to take children to any visits with parents ordered by the court, which can be weekly.

While foster parents get mileage reimbursement, relative caregivers do not, even as they are required to drive children many miles per week for appointments.

Michelle Tynes, who lives in Graves County in Western Kentucky, said she had to drive hundreds of miles back and forth to Louisville with no reimbursement after one of several grandchildren she took in temporarily needed multiple medical procedures at Norton Children’s Hospital.

She was able to pay for it, but Hatfield said buying gasoline is a hardship for many relatives.

“This one is really a big deal for a lot of families,” Hatfield said.

Respite care

Relative caregivers are not eligible for outside care for children for their medical appointments or just a needed break for errands or other events although foster parents do get reimbursed for respite care.

Shrout, the Maysville grandfather, said a trusted woman from his church cared for his granddaughters when he had to stay overnight in the hospital for a heart procedure.

He said he’s grateful for the support from his church friends but said he wishes he had some of the same help as foster parents.

“The legislature seems to be bending over backwards to help foster parents instead of kinship parents like me,” Shrout said. “We’re treated differently than those people are and it’s not fair.”

Guardianship payments

Relatives often take children under temporary arrangements in which they can get foster payments. But if the court determines the child can’t return to the parents, the relative then may adopt or obtain permanent custody.

That stops foster payments.

Advocates would like to see the state take advantage of federal funds available through a guardianship arrangement where the relative is eligible for payments as a guardian until the child turns 18.

Hatfield said state social service officials have told her they are investigating this possibility and she hopes it will become available in Kentucky.

Also, while foster children are eligible for free tuition at a state college in Kentucky, kinship children are not.

Hatfield said that would be a big help to caregivers of children nearing college age.

Opioid settlement funds?

Hatfield says she doesn’t know how much all these proposals would cost or how they would be implemented.

For that reason, she said, she’s urging lawmakers to create a task force that would study the situation and try to get a handle on the scope of the need and money required to pay for any changes.

“As much as we’ve been talking for the last nine years about kinship care, why wouldn’t we have a task force to see what the needs are,” she said.

And Hatfield said she has one final thought: Why not use some of the millions of dollars Kentucky has recovered in settlements with pharmaceutical companies over the opioid addiction crisis?

Addiction is what caused many parents to lose custody of their children, Hatfield said, asking:

“Why are we not using some of these opioid settlement funds for kinship caregivers?”

is part of States Newsroom, a network of news bureaus supported by grants and a coalition of donors as a 501c(3) public charity. Kentucky Lantern maintains editorial independence. Contact Editor Jamie Lucke for questions: info@kentuckylantern.com. Follow Kentucky Lantern on and .

Chris Riback: Ann, thanks so much for coming to the studio. It’s great to have you here.

Ann Vadakkan: Thank you for having me.

Chris Riback: So tell me about you. What year are you in school and what are some of your interests?

Ann Vadakkan: So I’m currently a sophomore at Neil High School. I do a lot of dance outside of school, Indian classical dance. I’ve been doing it for around 13 years. That’s been a huge part of my life. I also do a lot of art, like painting, drawing, anything like that. I’m also a big baker, so pretty much all over the place, but it’s been a lot of fun.

Chris Riback: Well, excellent. We would all love to take advantage of the baking, so feel free to bring samples by the studio at any time.

Ann Vadakkan: Of course.

Chris Riback: Tell me about the policy and government and youth advocacy work that you do. What motivates you?

Ann Vadakkan: So I’m currently part of the Austin Youth Council, and I was recently appointed to be on the YEF Council, but as a part of the Austin Youth Council, it really advocates for youth empowerment, just getting a bunch of different people, a bunch of diverse cultures, races, pretty much anything that falls along those lines just to come together and be civically engaged. This includes volunteering or talking to council members about issues that we face as youth, which is a huge part of the Austin Youth Council. So as a part of the YEF Council, we plan these conferences and workshops for the youth delegates, which is a really amazing opportunity and I’m super excited to be working on it.

Chris Riback: What are some of the issues when you talk to in Austin and to the council there, what are some of the issues that are on youth’s minds that you help inform them about?

Ann Vadakkan: So I definitely think mental health is one of the biggest issues that the youth face, especially. All over the nation, not just in Austin. So ways to address that that we’ve done is having campaigns on social media, through Instagram and posting about social media awareness, advocating for just to get rid of the stigma that surrounds mental illness in all of our public high schools. That’s been a huge part. Homelessness, that’s also been a huge growing issue in Austin, specifically.

Chris Riback: It’s a big Austin issue, yes.

Ann Vadakkan: Yes, for sure. And ways that we’ve tried to address that is creating care packages and trying to implement care packages for the homeless population, because we have different committees and different committees focus on different ideas. So the homelessness committee specifically focuses creating care packages.

Chris Riback: Youth mental health, youth mental wellness. Do you see the challenges with your peers, with your friends? What are kids going through?

Ann Vadakkan: For sure. There’s a study one in every three students in high school has basically some sort of mental health issue. This goes along with a lot lack of motivation that I’ve seen in my peers, for sure. Students that were once super motivated to get up every day, do the work, be top of their class is no longer like that. They’ve just sort of fallen behind due to the pandemic and just the lack of socialization that came with that. I definitely think that a lot of my classmates do suffer from mental illnesses and that should be addressed.

Chris Riback: It’s got to be hard to see.

Ann Vadakkan: Yes, for sure. Just seeing the downfall and the gradual decline of my peers, just being really studious top of the class to all of a sudden not wanting to do any assignments at all is heartbreaking.

Chris Riback: So both in Austin and with the YEF, Youth Education and Families Council, you work with a lot of adults.

Ann Vadakkan: Yes.

Chris Riback: What do the adults not understand?

Ann Vadakkan: I think that something that the adults should understand is the fact that we do have a voice and that is pretty generic, but there’s a lot of people who just kind of overlook what the youth have to say. Just as a part of this conference, we were speaking to some of the other youth delegates from across the nation and they were addressing how there weren’t as many youth delegate workshops as they would’ve liked, which is kind of counterintuitive to the message that the NLC is trying to send, which was just a huge, just shocker. So I think that’s definitely one.

Chris Riback: Do you connect, we’re talking about education, you are raising a whole series of issues, including mental health. Do you see the connections between youth education, maybe even younger childhood education, if you can think back to elementary school or even before, and ensuring mental health wellness with teenagers?

Ann Vadakkan: I think that the education system has definitely began to start implementing different programs, especially in high school to address these issues. But definitely in elementary and middle school, I did not see as many. I didn’t even know that like mental and this was something that a lot of people were dealing with just because that wasn’t addressed at all. And I know that there are students who have faced trauma in elementary and middle school, but it’s just not addressed at all. I was just in a session with the mayor’s education task force and they were addressing how they’ve implemented more counselors into school, into high schools. And I’ve seen that in my high school as well, but definitely in the younger ages, like elementary and middle school, I don’t see that as often.

Chris Riback: And what’s next for you?

Ann Vadakkan: So I’m planning to going into business just really broad, but maybe specializing in marketing. I love interacting with people. I think that’s something that I would excel in. I definitely want to stay civically engaged in some way. Maybe having a position at the NLC, just being exposed to the NLC in general was an incredible experience. Seeing all the leaders just coming together and seeing how they interact with people too. That’s just been an inspiring experience. And I definitely think I want to pursue something either in the government side of things or the business side of things.

Chris Riback: Yes. We look forward to either way, maybe both and.

Ann Vadakkan: Yes, that’s for sure.

Chris Riback: But we look forward to it. Ann, thank you for stopping by the studio.

Ann Vadakkan: Yes. Thank you so much for having me.

Chris Riback: Avinash, thanks so much for coming to the studio. Looking forward to talking with you.

Avinash Verma: Of course. I look forward to the conversation as well.

Chris Riback: So tell me about yourself. What year are you in high school? What are your interests?

Avinash Verma: All right. So my name is Avinash Verma, and I live in Austin, Texas. And I’m currently a senior, so looking forward to graduating in about a few months. A few of my interests, I really like to watch movies. I’m a big-

Chris Riback: Big movie buff.

Avinash Verma: … avid fan of movies. Yes, movie buff. And a few of my interests are, of course, policies, local politics. I really like to be involved in my community. That’s something I really try to build into my life and make an effort to be more involved in my community.

Chris Riback: Excellent.

Avinash Verma: And overall, I also really love to cook. I love to cook in my free times, try out new recipes.

Chris Riback: Well, if the policy, government, changing the world thing doesn’t work out for you, you can always do a meal and a movie.

Avinash Verma: Oh, of course. Yes. A meal and a movie totally works.

Chris Riback: That sounds like [inaudible]. There are a lot of policies out there.

Avinash Verma: Yes.

Chris Riback: Education, environment, health, criminal justice, infrastructure. What are you motivated on?

Avinash Verma: Something that I’m really passionate about is youth engagement. There are not a lot of policies that exist when it comes to involving youth in policies, in politics, in local government, in state government, in federal government. There are not a lot of initiatives that are set in stone steps taken towards involving youth more and more into politics. A lot of youth, a lot of people that I speak to, my friends, my colleagues, they think politics as a taboo. That’s something that, in their mind, is like, “Oh, the system is broken. I don’t want to be involved in it. It’s too complicated for me to understand.”

So I think making efforts towards getting that notion out of people is really important. And youth engagement, more information, more experience out there will really help our community grow stronger together and also focus more on policies and politics, which actually will change the world. And another topic that I’m also really passionate about is, of course, infrastructure. So just infrastructure when it comes to roads, when it comes to schools, when it comes to the resources we have at schools, the resources we have as a community is also really important for me, because I truly believe that having a lot of resources and the opportunities are out there. And really looking for the resources that will connect you to the opportunities is really important to me.

Chris Riback: Now, you sit on NLC’s Council on Youth, Education, and Families.

Avinash Verma: That’s correct.

Chris Riback: What are you focused on there? What’s the work like there?

Avinash Verma: There are four youth that are appointed on the Youth, Education, and Families Council here at NLC every term. And I have served two terms on it. I was reelected last year to be a part of the council again. So our work is mainly to amplify youth voice at NLC. So we have about 165 youth delegates at the conference at CCC right now. We technically cannot have all of them be part of NLC board and represent our voices, so the four of us represent their voices on the issues that we want the YEF board to prioritize and issues that are important to us. The YEF council is really a great opportunity for all of us to amplify our voices.

And since the name of the council is Youth, Education, and Families, really having the youth perspective on issues and what we want on the changes that we want to see is really important to NLC, and I think that’s great. So just being a part of it for two years, so our work is basically providing data, providing statistics on the issues that we discuss here through NLC conferences for the youth delegates, what issues we think are important, what projects that youth councils from all across the country are working on, and what change we want to see. So really bringing that voice out to NLC, and then NLC will take our word forward and create policies, work on it further. So that’s really kind of my role at YEF.

Chris Riback: So as you amplify your voice, as you try to push your words forward, you’re in those meetings with adults.

Avinash Verma: Correct.

Chris Riback: What are the adults missing? What do they not understand?

Avinash Verma: Adults are really missing the connect, right? So the connect that we have with our community is totally different than what the adults have. What we face in our day-to-day lives is very different than what the adults face. We have to take a school bus to go to school. We have to interact with our teachers. We have to interact with our resources that we have. What is the technology like? Do we have access to laptops? Do we have access to broadband connection? It’s all that connect that we have with our community is totally different than the connect that adults have in their day-to-day lives. So I think really bringing that perspective to the council on what is important to us is what really matters.

Chris Riback: What is the Real World Learning Movement?

Avinash Verma: Real world learning. So the Real World Learning Movement is to really incorporate real world learning into schools. So we did a workshop, a part of the Youth Delegation program [inaudible] city summit, which was focused on real world learning. And we partnered with the Kauffman Founders Foundation that is based off in Kansas. So the Real World Learning Initiative is basically to integrate real world learning part of school curriculums, part of school district curriculums. So for a few hours of the school, let’s say they’re part of the youth engagement track. So the youth engagement track, you’ll take few classes on youth engagement your first year, freshman year maybe. And your sophomore, junior year you actually go out in the real world to work in civic engagement. So the Kauffman Foundation has this whole system set up in Olathe, Kansas, where we really took inspiration from. So their school district has the Real World Learning platform integrated into their school district.

So they have different tracks, such as youth engagement, engineering, STEM, civic leadership. So all these tracks really help students to get their career path decided as well as move forward with it and gain real world experience at the same time. So for example, the civic leadership track will work at the city office the three hours that they’re supposed to be at school. So they’re getting their real world learning experience. We have a similar system at my school back in Austin, Texas. It is not a district-wide thing, but our automotive program has really implemented the Real World Learning program.

So I have been part of the program for four years. And for the first three years, we are in the classroom, in the shop that we have on school, working on cars, learning all the ins and out, and really diagnosis as well as repair. And then my senior year, which currently I go out to Austin INFINITI dealership and work at their maintenance facility. So just having that experience, to me, the real world learning, that’s the whole essence of it, that me going and working out in an automotive industry and learning how they do things differently than what I learned back in school, how they do work orders, how they work on cars, what are the different techniques that they use that I didn’t learn about, that just gets me ready for the industry. So it’s really the essence of real world learning and getting that experience.

Chris Riback: That’s a key part of education, isn’t it?

Avinash Verma: Of course, and that is what is missing in our community, right? I meet so many people who are like, “Oh, I still haven’t decided my career path. I still don’t know what I want to do.” And really these programs will really help them narrow down or dislike a career path that they were thinking about. Right? So this will really help youth and young adults to really understand the career that they’re going into and gain the real world experience.

Chris Riback: Rockets or airplanes?

Avinash Verma: Airplanes.

Chris Riback: Airplanes.

Avinash Verma: Airplanes, for sure.

Chris Riback: I was reading your background. I saw a little bit of NASA, but I also saw Austin Airport.

Avinash Verma: Oh, yes.

Chris Riback: Airplanes over rockets. Okay.

Avinash Verma: I’m also a big av geek. I like to look at planes. What are the different airlines out there? Do a lot of research on that as well. But yes, I have worked with NASA also on… So the best part is I did not work on rockets when I was in NASA. I worked on airplanes while I was in NASA.

Chris Riback: Oh. So that’s why-

Avinash Verma: I was part of their aviation department internship.

Chris Riback: I see. Okay. Well, that’s the part that I missed. And lastly, what’s next for you?

Avinash Verma: So when I joined Austin Youth Council four years ago as a freshman, really policies and municipal leadership and politics was not in my mind at all. I was just looking for an opportunity to be part of my community more, to be more engaged. And I joined this program, and I ended up really liking it. So I really do see a future in politics and in policy making. But currently, my focus is to get a bachelor’s in mechanical engineering. So I have always had that passion for cars in mind. So even my mom tells me till today, “Oh, he had his path set when he was five years old. He always wanted to do something in the automotive industry.” So that’s why I chose my high school to go to, and I’m part of the automotive program over there. So I want a bachelor’s in mechanical engineering and specialize in automotive design, get a masters, work in the field a little bit, but eventually maybe make my transition into policies and politics and bring that engineering background in mind.

Chris Riback: And at that point, that’s when you become Secretary of Transportation.

Avinash Verma: Oh, we just saw the Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg, a few hours ago. Sure. I did not think about that.

Chris Riback: OK. Well, we’ll let him know. Leave the resume and we’ll let him know.

Avinash Verma: Sounds good.

Chris Riback: Avinash, thank you so much. Thank you for stopping by the studio.

Avinash Verma: Of course. No problem.